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Book Build Machine - Scotland

Re: Book Build Machine - Scotland

Postby keith » Sat May 02, 2015 7:58 pm

Phil, can you tell me if you think that the SuperPID you install was worth the effort / money? Does having it really justify the cost and effort? I am asking because I am seriously thinking about adding one to my machine. OF COURSE if anyone else reads this and has an opinion I would love to hear it..
Thanks
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Re: Book Build Machine - Scotland

Postby Awesomeness » Mon May 04, 2015 12:06 am

keith wrote:I am seriously thinking about adding [a SuperPID] to my machine.


What problem are you trying to solve by adding one?

That's the issue I always bump up against. I don't have one, and see little point in them. It can let you get a little lower RPMs out of it, and possibly more power (though the truth of that seems questionable at best). However, the main point of them is adjusting the RPM, and then you have to answer the question "When do I adjust feeds and speeds?" The answer of course is "When switching bits or materials." You're unlikely to be cutting more than one material at at time, and so without an automatic tool changer, what's the point of them?

In my opinion it's a tinkerer's gadget... a feel-good gizmo that lets you spend another several hours tinkering with the machine, with a small/niche improvement at best. If you like tinkering, that's perfectly fine, and you'll have a new adventure installing and using one. If not, spend the money and time on a new project made WITH your machine, not working ON the machine.
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Re: Book Build Machine - Scotland

Postby MyHD120 » Mon May 04, 2015 7:10 pm

I added one to my machine. Being an inexperienced CNC operator or even using a router I find it a great help. I accept or adjust the feeds and speeds set by the software. I know that before I had it I was setting the router speed way to high, trying to guess. I know that when I started to use it the router was much quieter, wasn't screaming and screeching. Less wood burning. It was a challenge installing the wiring. Phil helped me with that. It was mainly due to my misunderstanding the electronics. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
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Re: Book Build Machine - Scotland

Postby keith » Mon May 04, 2015 7:39 pm

Awesomeness my main reason is to gain more speed control. Currently with a Porter Cable machine I don't have a lot of options and yes I would rather NOT spend the time and the money if I don't need to. So I thought I would ask the forum what they thought of them, a worthwhile investment or not????

Many thanks in advance!!!
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Re: Book Build Machine - Scotland

Postby Awesomeness » Mon May 04, 2015 8:03 pm

I would say probalby not worth the price, since it's over the price of the router itself.

For the combined price of a PC 892 + Super PID you can get a 2.2kW spnidle (true 3HP)! Roughly 3x as powerful, plus precision RPM control... you can even connect it to Mach3 if you really want to. http://www.ebay.com/itm/WATER-COOLED-SP ... 3cf82af4d5 (This is just one example, but eBay is full of them for around $300.)
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Re: Book Build Machine - Scotland

Postby phill fenton » Thu May 07, 2015 7:56 am

I was very pleased with the improvements to my machine after installing the Superpid. It's a bit like converting your cars windows from manual to electric operation (in that it's a much more satisfying way to control the device).

Apart from that - tha main advantages I can see are as as follows:-

1/ Precision control of the spindle speed - previously this was guesswork - I had no way of knowing what speed I was running at as the router itself had no rev counter display.

2/ Much less noise due to the fact I am now able to run at much lower rpm without the speed being affected by load

3/ Mach 3 is switching the router on and off as well as controlling the RPM

4/ I can adjust the rpm whilst the machine is cutting via mach 3 - this would be difficult to do if I was adjusting the speed manually at the router itself which in itself would be moving at the same time.

5/ Installing the superpid effectively converts a cheap £30 hand held router into a much more sophisticated and controllable device.

Would I install a superpid on my next machine even if it meant having to buy one again? Answer - Yes
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Re: Book Build Machine - Scotland

Postby keith » Thu May 07, 2015 11:18 pm

Many thanks for the advice Phil.
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Re: Book Build Machine - Scotland

Postby airnocker » Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:40 pm

Awesomeness wrote:I would say probalby not worth the price, since it's over the price of the router itself.

For the combined price of a PC 892 + Super PID you can get a 2.2kW spnidle (true 3HP)! Roughly 3x as powerful, plus precision RPM control... you can even connect it to Mach3 if you really want to. http://www.ebay.com/itm/WATER-COOLED-SP ... 3cf82af4d5 (This is just one example, but eBay is full of them for around $300.)


Now I love the idea of having a spindle like Awesomeness mentions (hotdamn! these beauties are getting cheap!!) There are obviously a lot of upsides to using spindles like these. But if you are currently using something akin to a PC890 router there may be downsides to changing to a spindle, but there may also be major upsides but it all depends on what one requires to do the job right. So let me just use myself as an example.

First, foremost and ALWAYS, use the right tool for the right job.

1. I don't do CNC for a living
2. So far, my PC890 is capable of doing everything I either wanted or needed to do (hard/soft woods, phenolic, brass, acrylic plastic) including milling sheet aluminum (dry).
3. My DIY CNC machine currently only needs 110VAC for power, not 220VAC
4. It does not require water cooling
5. Water in close proximity to things that use 220VAC needs careful thought and attention

At this time, for what I do, a spindle is not warranted so I must agree with Phil. Since I implemented the SuperPID I am able to better control, speeds and feeds (and in many cases, noise levels as a result of lower RPMs). Also consider, since moving a few years ago from Texas to Colorado I've only had opportunity to do a few small projects on my DIY CNC. And now I'm just now preparing to mill small lettering pockets in some .178" thick sheet acrylic using a .050" single flute bit on a few signs for a local public library volunteer group.

The benefit of the SuperPID more than out-weights its cost for me because it provides the opportunity to set speeds and feeds far more accurately for a greater variety of materials using a greater variety of mill/engraving/specialty bits.

PS. I am truly blown away at the costs of this spindle example Awesomenes shared.
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Re: Book Build Machine - Scotland

Postby Awesomeness » Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:03 pm

airnocker wrote:I am able to better control, speeds and feeds (and in many cases, noise levels as a result of lower RPMs).


Can you elaborate on this part more, and specifically how you were limited by the speed control on the router without the SuperPID? For example, did you try to cut something, couldn't get the RPM right, end up trashing it, then were able to complete the project with the SuperPID?

airnocker wrote:1. I don't do CNC for a living
2. So far, my PC890 is capable of doing everything I either wanted or needed to do (hard/soft woods, phenolic, brass, acrylic plastic) including milling sheet aluminum (dry).
3. My DIY CNC machine currently only needs 110VAC for power, not 220VAC
4. It does not require water cooling
5. Water in close proximity to things that use 220VAC needs careful thought and attention
...
PS. I am truly blown away at the costs of this spindle example Awesomenes shared.


In rebutal...
1. How are you implying that not doing CNC for a living is important? The only conclusion I can draw from stating it is "It's ok to make a lesser of two choices, if you aren't taking it seriously." kind of thing. I'm not trying to be insulting... I just don't follow the logic of the statement, in support of a SuperPID - it almost seems like the opposite.

2. What I was arguing wasn't "capable" - there are people that do this VERY SLOWLY with Dremel tools on their CNC. I'm basically arguing that as far as bang-for-your-buck, the SuperPID offers little. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the speeds and feeds (above), but I still see little capability that you come out with, after adding one, besides a fancy and expensive screen.

3. I was suggesting the 2.2kW spindle because it is roughly the same price as a PC 892 + SuperPID. If you want to stay 110V, you can get a 1.5kW spindle (from the same link above, actually) for far less than a PC 892 + SuperPID, AND it will still be about 150%+ as powerful. More capable in every way, AND cheaper still.

4. There are air-cooled spindles available for the same prices as the water-cooled. They are just much louder, just like the PC 892, because that's a major contributor of what you're hearing.

5. Potentially an electrical hazard, though it is intentionally designed for it, so it's not just a wild hack. Also, if you use distilled water you can reduce issues further (water actually isn't conductive, it's the minerals in it that are, so distilled water is pretty insulative!).

If you're wanting the downsides of water cooling, I'll tell you what they are... cleaning the damned thing. The water eventually wants to grow algae and other biological stuff in it. So you typically add biocides, silver, etc. to keep growth down, and then you still have to change the water every 6-12 months. In cold regions, you also have to add anti-freeze, assuming your CNC is in an unheated garage (and that may make it conductive again, though I am personally not concerned about the conductive part).

In return for the hassles of water cooling, you can pretty much hold a conversation while the CNC is cutting! Major decrease in sound... orders of magnitude major. If you don't want the hassle, air-cooled spindles are available for simplicity. Such as... http://www.ebay.com/itm/AIR-COOLED-2-2K ... 258819ebde

Just a note, spindles have been priced in this ballpark for years. I had one I added to my Amazon wishlist in 2011, for $342 (and I just got around to buying one several months ago). Maybe the most unfortunate part is that the word hasn't gotten out?
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Re: Book Build Machine - Scotland

Postby airnocker » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:43 am

Hi Awesomeness, you should know I have a great deal of respect for you as we have shared some years on this forum (albeit I've been absent lately).

Can you elaborate on this part more, and specifically how you were limited by the speed control on the router without the SuperPID? For example, did you try to cut something, couldn't get the RPM right, end up trashing it, then were able to complete the project with the SuperPID?


Now my PC890 only had a rotary dial for changing speeds. What the actual resulting speed turned out to be was uncertain. More accurate speed control is possible with the SuperPID type of motor speed controller and much lower constant speeds are possible due to the feedback nature of the motor control loop. Calculating speeds, feeds and chip load is also more precise and I find that useful.

1. How are you implying that not doing CNC for a living is important?

I only mean that I do not have please anyone but myself and have no "demands" on my capabilities that a customer may be paying for. I think it would be fun to earn money with my modest capability.

2. What I was arguing wasn't "capable" - there are people that do this VERY SLOWLY with Dremel tools on their CNC. I'm basically arguing that as far as bang-for-your-buck, the SuperPID offers little. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the speeds and feeds (above), but I still see little capability that you come out with, after adding one, besides a fancy and expensive screen.

I hear ya'. I made my G2 machine with my Dremel driven G1 machine. I agree, that bang for buck with spindles as inexpensive as they are you get more with the spindle. But if one has already made the router investment it's a value-add-on. It is a hard life to lead in not trying to have ALL the best and right tools for the right job, Lord knows it's damn tempting though.

3. I was suggesting the 2.2kW spindle because it is roughly the same price as a PC 892 + SuperPID. If you want to stay 110V, you can get a 1.5kW spindle (from the same link above, actually) for far less than a PC 892 + SuperPID, AND it will still be about 150%+ as powerful. More capable in every way, AND cheaper still.

I agree 1000% with you. If I had it to do all over again today, I'd buy a spindle, hands down. It has all the benefits of the PC890 and SuperPid and more power with an overall cheaper cost of a "mill/drill bit rotator" (except for the potential added costs for the 220VAC requirement). For me, at least I'd need an electrical panel upgrade (possibly a service upgrade, too) to get a dedicated 220VAC circuit into my basement.

4. There are air-cooled spindles available for the same prices as the water-cooled. They are just much louder, just like the PC 892, because that's a major contributor of what you're hearing.
Louder is not good, and again a benefit for those using routers and PID controllers OR WATER COOLED SPINDLES. For me, my biggest noise maker is the shop vac needed to drive the Dust Buster.

5. Potentially an electrical hazard, though it is intentionally designed for it, so it's not just a wild hack. Also, if you use distilled water you can reduce issues further (water actually isn't conductive, it's the minerals in it that are, so distilled water is pretty insulative!).

Amen, Hallelujah! I was in the laser light show business for over a decade and know extremely well the issues and risks of having water cooled devices IN, NEAR, and FLOWING THROUGH 220 and 440VAC equipment, but at least they used flow-though cooling!

If you're wanting the downsides of water cooling, I'll tell you what they are... cleaning the damned thing. The water eventually wants to grow algae and other biological stuff in it. So you typically add biocides, silver, etc. to keep growth down, and then you still have to change the water every 6-12 months. In cold regions, you also have to add anti-freeze, assuming your CNC is in an unheated garage (and that may make it conductive again, though I am personally not concerned about the conductive part).

Yes, but like you state the benefits of the spindle out-way this inconvenience. If I did A LOT of milling, hands down I would want a water cooled spindle (and I've quietly been lusting for one for several years) I just don't do enough "stuff" to justify it now.

Less noise is always desired, no question

[qoute]...spindles have been priced in this ballpark for years. I had one I added to my Amazon wishlist in 2011, for $342 (and I just got around to buying one several months ago). Maybe the most unfortunate part is that the word hasn't gotten out?[/quote]
So we all benefit from you still being a significant presence on the BYC Forum as you are making us all aware of these developments. Hey I just saw today that Patrick's buildyourtools.com has become buildyourcnc.com! My old ID for buildyourtools.com was defunct and didn't work on buildyourcnc.com so I had to create an ID on the new site. That's how little I've been involved these past two years.

I confess, I do not know what Roman is charging for his SuperPID today, but when I bought mine back when... the cost of the router and diy pid was cheaper than a spindle.

All the best to you, Awesomeness!
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